Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by peugeot407 on Sat 4 Feb 2012 - 10:30

Absolutely. Our focus is on the period between the Norman Conquest in the 11th century and the end of the Crusades in the 13th/14th century, but the general timeline of the mod stretches far further.

The thing is, our timeframe is nearly 1000 years, so we can't focus on everything, we have to narrow down. As a general rule, our subcivs are from the Early Middle Ages, our main civs are from the High Middle Ages, and our Revolution civs are from the Late Middle Ages. That more or less proves your point as well about our subcivs being from an earlier time period, but that's their very point in K&B. They're not just civs that are too minor to be included as a main civ, they really are 'empires of old'. Militarily some of them would have long been defeated, but that doesn't really matter. They would still have been settled in an area, and you can use their ancestral knowledge and traditional methods of fighting to your advantage. When we were in much earlier stages of K&B, we even had a lenghty discussion about whether or not to include the fragmented Roman Empire as a subciv.


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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by super7700 on Sat 4 Feb 2012 - 11:02

Okay that kind of makes sense, though why don't you make the sub-civs a combination of empires of old and minor civilization? For revolution civs, can you decide on which civ you want to be or does it depend on what faction you are?

I still think you should have Gaels instead of Celts and something else instead of Britons, because the Celts and Britons barely even made it past 476 AD.

Also, could you perhaps post a full list of all the sub-civs?


Also I have another idea - the Hanseatic League (Economic, trade and shipping bonuses)
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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by peugeot407 on Sat 4 Feb 2012 - 11:38

Okay that kind of makes sense, though why don't you make the sub-civs a combination of empires of old and minor civilization?

No, we won't. As you've noticed, the way we treat subcivs is pretty hard to explain already. If we also add more modern civs to the list, that really won't work.

For revolution civs, can you decide on which civ you want to be or does it depend on what faction you are?

More so than in unmodded AoE3. There's a hardcoded limit of eight revolutionaries, but in K&B, every civ that gets them (so that's no Muslim or Crusading civs) will not have a choice of two revolutionaries like in AoE3, but three instead. Revolutionaries include late-Medieval important nations such as Burgundy, Serbia and Sicily (that's Spanish Sicily).

I still think you should have Gaels instead of Celts and something else instead of Britons, because the Celts and Britons barely even made it past 476 AD.

I'm not going to say everything about the Arthurian Legend is true, but I'd say we can safely call the early medieval pre-Saxon inhabitants of the British Isles "Britons" and "Celts".

Also, could you perhaps post a full list of all the sub-civs?

Er, yeah, why not... In completely random order, and not all of them appearing in the Prologue: Nizari, Saxons, Kwarazmians, Frisians, Chudes, Franks, Chinese, Huns, Britons, Persians, Jews, Celts, Visigoths, Alans, Sudanese, Avars, Sicilians (that's Saracen Sicily), Berbers, Jutes and Goths.

Also I have another idea - the Hanseatic League (Economic, trade and shipping bonuses)

It will feature, worry not, but it won't feature as a separate civ or subciv. We're more thinking of a couple of related HC cards for the civs that historically had something to do with the Hanseatic League (that would be the Slavs, Germans, Vikings and Flemish).


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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by super7700 on Sat 4 Feb 2012 - 11:47

Good ideas for the sub-civs and it seems that some of the minor nations are covered by the revolution factions (like the Burgundians). What about Bohemia? Are they a revolution faction or will they have a more minor part?
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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by peugeot407 on Sat 4 Feb 2012 - 12:14

I don't know if you've read about our Religion system yet (if you haven't, it's one of the older Friday Updates), but the Hussite Faith will be one of the religions.


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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by super7700 on Sat 4 Feb 2012 - 12:29

I've read it, and I remember commenting about how it would be better if the techs unlocked units as well as those other small bonuses on AOE3 heaven. It would be interesting if the Hussite Faith unlocked war wagons (tabor) and peasant handgunners, or just a shipment with them. And to prevent the player from just switching whenever they want just depending on what unit they'd like, switching religions should be time consuming and costly.
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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by peugeot407 on Sat 4 Feb 2012 - 13:13

It is time consuming and costly, don't worry... We're not going to add any specific techs or units for the system, we want to keep it simple. Obviously, we might add a couple of unique HC cards for the Germans (considering Bohemia was a part of the HRE), that's no problem...


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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by super7700 on Sat 4 Feb 2012 - 13:55

Well the HRE did adopt the wagenburg after the Hussites used it successfully against them, but other than that, I don't see the HRE recruiting Hussite based units because they didn't get along very well...
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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by peugeot407 on Sat 4 Feb 2012 - 14:03

Oh, they won't get any new units. We're not creating new units for the hell of it, so for something as minor as an HC card, we're definitely not going to.


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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by super7700 on Sat 4 Feb 2012 - 14:16

So no Hussite units then? Sad
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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by Pepp on Sat 4 Feb 2012 - 15:15

Nope, or traditionally we say Nay, or some linguistic scientist will say NO.

Hussite War happened at 15th century, nearly the end of our timeline (which is 16th century). The Hussite, which were Bohemian, were the enemy of the Emperor and Catholic factions (Hungary, Poland, etc). The Hussite defeated at the end of the 15th century, so it means that HRE adopt the wagenburg at the end of the 15th century or at the beginning of the 16th century, which is our mod timeline end.

Giving Germany a Hussite unit is a great unhistoire realite (I haven't said that word for 2 weeks...).

Also, most of Hussite unit armed with something hard to mod, alike flail. Their army also armed mostly with gun (tarasnice, houfnice, hooked gun, pistala...), while in K&B, gun is a lesser unit, with only 2 gun unit in game plus 1 UU.

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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by super7700 on Sat 4 Feb 2012 - 19:44

Are you sure that the HRE only adopted the wagenburg after thy Hussites were defeated? And anyway, it wasn't just the HRE adopting them. The Hungarian king Mathias Corvinus hired a hussite wagon force in the mid 15th century and used them against the Ottomans, who soon adopted it themselves. So it does fit the timeline giving other nations the wagenburg.

Regarding the flail, isn't it possible to get items from other units though, like how the cavalry archer units use longbowmen helmets, so maybe you could use the iron flail unit (I keep almost writing 'fail' Razz )? If that isn't possible, the Hussite militia were armed with a variety of other weapons, such as halberds. But they don't matter too much. What I'd really like to see is the war wagons, and possibly a militia handgunner, to represent the effective hussite use of firearms.
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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by Pepp on Sat 4 Feb 2012 - 20:46

Hussite flail isn't the same with those iron flails. This is Hussite Flail:
Spoiler:

And this is iron flail, or Chinese flail:
Spoiler:

So, as you see, the Hussite flail is clearly different. The Hussite one is a modified flail used for farming, mixed with European morning star or spiked mace:
Spoiler:

And, the problem is there: There is no animation for such weapon, alike European flail, whip, morning star, etc.

But don't worry, the War Wagon granny have been used for something else! Very Happy

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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by super7700 on Sun 5 Feb 2012 - 7:52

Okay, so no hussite militia with flails, but I still don't see why there isn't going to be a war wagon unit and perhaps a Hussite handgun militia unit. The tabor was quite a revolutionary idea with its use of not just war wagons, but also gunpowder weapons. Not only that, but it allowed peasants to defeat heavily armoured knights (e.g. at Vitkov). I just thought it's quite special.

And yes, I know, the model is used for the Saracen house wagon.
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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by Pepp on Sun 5 Feb 2012 - 12:26

Perhaps they can me mercenary if we found how to import anim from other game.

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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by super7700 on Sun 5 Feb 2012 - 12:32

Or you can just have the war wagon and handgun militia. But a good idea - they should be mercenaries.
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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by Pepp on Sun 5 Feb 2012 - 12:36

But well, hand gun unit can't be mercenary, it is the rule made by Robert.

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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by super7700 on Sun 5 Feb 2012 - 12:37

Rule? Why is it a rule?
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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by Pepp on Sun 5 Feb 2012 - 12:44

The Rule of Mercenary

It is Martial Law!


Here is the rule on how a unit can be a mercenary.
1. It is medieval unit. So no musketeer, dragoon, etc...
2. It is based on historical reality or on somewhat historical. One of our mercenary isn't listed in the history, but is in a historical painting, so we approve it. Ask Iliander what is it name.
3. It is special. Well, so no [put a random name here] Spearman, or [put another random name here] Man-at-Arms. Also, there is no double mercenary unit with different name but same statistic/outline.
4. It is from a minor country or state or another nations that doesn't be a civ in the game. For example Swiss, as they do not become a major civilization, their unit (Swiss Pikemen) become mercenary.
5. It is not a hand gun unit or unit armed with sulfur powder. So no Li'l Bombard, or Hooked Gunner, etc...
6. It is approved by the team.

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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by super7700 on Sun 5 Feb 2012 - 13:13

Yeah I don't see how a unit can appear just because it was in a painting. Was the painting actually made during the medieval era?
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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by Pepp on Sun 5 Feb 2012 - 13:18

Some yes, and some based on histoire realite. And back to topic Sir! Friends of The Dude

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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by iliander on Sun 5 Feb 2012 - 19:36

I don't really understand Pepp here, what painting?
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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by peugeot407 on Sun 5 Feb 2012 - 22:06

Yeah, that was definitely a Peppish addition, and not something we have discussed before, leave alone that we would have agreed on it.


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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by The Dude on Mon 6 Feb 2012 - 5:02

I don't even remember any actual specific guidelines we use to make mercs. As far as I know if it's basically it's if it's cool, unique, is within our timeline, and we all agree we take it...

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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by peugeot407 on Mon 6 Feb 2012 - 5:28

Well, there is a guideline saying that it is preferably from a nation not otherwise featured in the mod, with the exception of very obvious mercenaries. For example, our entire current list of mercenaries is from regions such as Russia, Scotland, Switzerland that don't feature as main civs, subcivs or revcivs, except the Landsknecht, but they are such obvious mercenaries that it would be shameful not to include them.

And to end this bloody business: We won't be adding any Hussite units.


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