Discussing Homosexuality

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Re: Discussing Homosexuality

Post by peugeot407 on Sun 21 Jul 2013 - 2:55

Advanced as these preflood philosophers may have been, that doesn't mean one should just blindly accept what they read and wrote without taking it with even a minor pinch of salt...


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Re: Discussing Homosexuality

Post by Synecdoche on Sun 21 Jul 2013 - 6:21

I'm wondering if the Gaelic Firbolgs count as part of ili's Nephilim. The myth cycle is of the "preceding race overthrown by new gods" archetype that seems to be the kind of thing he's into, and they have a laser-eye (technology?!)
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Re: Discussing Homosexuality

Post by iliander on Sun 21 Jul 2013 - 7:21

Synecdoche wrote:I'm wondering if the Gaelic Firbolgs count as part of ili's Nephilim. The myth cycle is of the "preceding race overthrown by new gods" archetype that seems to be the kind of thing he's into, and they have a laser-eye (technology?!)
Never heard about Firbolgs before, but yeah it's probably a collection of tribes of nephilim-like humanoids. Where did you read about the laser eye? I can't seem to find anything about it.

How tall were they?
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Re: Discussing Homosexuality

Post by Synecdoche on Sun 21 Jul 2013 - 7:39

Search specifically for Balor and Lugh.

I meant Fomorians, not the Fir Bolg, actually. Sorry about that. The Fomorians were the gods of Ireland before the arrival of the Tuatha dé Danann, the faerie folk and Gaelic gods, who defeated them in battle much as the Aesir warred with the Vanir in Norse mythology.
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Re: Discussing Homosexuality

Post by iliander on Sun 21 Jul 2013 - 8:05

Synecdoche wrote:Search specifically for Balor and Lugh.

I meant Fomorians, not the Fir Bolg, actually. Sorry about that. The Fomorians were the gods of Ireland before the arrival of the Tuatha dé Danann, the faerie folk and Gaelic gods, who defeated them in battle much as the Aesir warred with the Vanir in Norse mythology.
I'm not sure if the Nephilim had access to technology or not. The ones before the flood probably had, but the few remaining after the flood didn't, and pretty much resembled giant cavemen. Not sure though.

FOMORIANS!!! Holy shit, that name has been in the back of my mind for ages.

The fomorians appear to be a race of hybrid creatures and the result of bad genetic mixes. Some giants from other cultures had clear characteristics: 2 rows of teeth in the upper jaw, 6 fingers and toes, horns on their head (probably why devils are depicted with horns), 8-12 feet tall.
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Re: Discussing Homosexuality

Post by super7700 on Sun 21 Jul 2013 - 8:36

iliander wrote:
"Supposed alien artifacts"... do global ancient historical accounts belong to that? Come on man, the ancients had vast knowledge about everything, and clearly talk about flying cities, fiery chariots, even rockets and atomic weapons.
The ancients were also good storytellers. Just because they wrote something down doesn't make it a definitive historical account of what actually happened. When they refer to flying cities and fiery chariots, they are more than likely being figurative and fanciful. When it comes to rockets and atomic weapons, I would say that you are applying modern day filters onto that - you are interpreting it from a modern perspective and not the perspective of the original writers. This means that when you see something that looks like a modern rocket, you will jump to the conclusion that it is a modern rocket. A great example is the Abydos "Helicopter Hieroglyph":

Spoiler:


That hieroglyph does seem to show a helicopter and a spaceship. But what we see there is our current idea of helicopters and spaceships, and to be quite honest, I doubt that the aliens would be going around in Hueys. People who believe that such things prove the existence of aliens are falling into this trap of applying modern day filters. 100 years ago, people would not have linked these hieroglyphs to aliens, and 100 years in the future people probably won't either, because their idea of a helicopter or spaceship may be completely different to our idea of one now. If there were aliens back then, why would they be using equipment that applies to our current definition of advanced technology? This is also a good example of people seeing what they want to see. If I said that this same hieroglyph is perfect proof that the Ancient Egyptians played cricket, you would probably think I'm absurd. But look at those three vertical lines with the horizontal line lying on top of them - they quite clearly resemble a set of wickets. Obviously, I am taking the hieroglyphs completely out of context, but so are those people who think that something resembling modern technology is actually modern technology. Then they are further taking it out of context by blaming aliens.

Also, the ancient Greeks are far from advanced compared to much older civilizations, BEFORE the flood.
This being the great flood that flooded the entire world and killed almost everyone? Well again, you are looking at this from a modern perspective. When the ancients say these floods covered the world, they most likely mean the known world for them, which was a rather small area. How would they know what was happening half the world away or even just a region away? You might reply by saying that there were multiple mentions of great floods from different places, but it makes much more sense that they are talking about different floods happening at different times. It's only when we take the idea of the great flood literally that the multiple mentions of floods seem to link together.
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Re: Discussing Homosexuality

Post by Synecdoche on Sun 21 Jul 2013 - 9:03

Good luck, super7700. Iliander is quite fond of his hypothesis, though, and likely the stubbornest and most self-assured person I've ever spoken to.

It's unlikely to me that the Fomorians would have been experiments. They were gods as well, and were both descended from the same ancestors and interbred with the divine, but human-shaped, Tuatha. Some Fomorians had no deformities to speak of as well.
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Re: Discussing Homosexuality

Post by peugeot407 on Sun 21 Jul 2013 - 9:15

The accounts of the Great Flood are so numerous, similar and widespread that it's very likely it actually did happen. Still, floods, no matter their size, are entirely normal natural phenomena while ancient Bell Hueys are not.

Also, the general excellence of your post has convinced me once more that we really need an Honours system on these forums, I'll be on it tomorrow...


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Re: Discussing Homosexuality

Post by super7700 on Sun 21 Jul 2013 - 9:36

Thanks Peugeot! I doubt this will actually go anywhere but I thought I might have a go using reasoning.
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Re: Discussing Homosexuality

Post by Mandos on Sun 21 Jul 2013 - 21:13

And here I come in to defend iliander...
Super, its one thing to have a helicopter like hieroglyph somewhere in a lost pyramid where your hypothesis may apply, but there's a different thing to have modern equipment and machinery displayed on relics and temples all around the world, several times, from the pyramids of Egypt to the pyramids of the Maya.

You can call it a coincidence only so much, it can't be the case everywhere, in every book, on every stone and in every temple that displays vehicles and astronauts. I would be willing to call them false interpretations but its simply too much of a common and spread occurrence throughout the ages.
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Re: Discussing Homosexuality

Post by iliander on Sun 21 Jul 2013 - 21:26

First of all, there're people who have actually researched, studied and investigated this extensively who obviously know a lot more than me. So what I say is far from all there is to say. Hehehehe... Severe Laughter 

super7700 wrote:The ancients were also good storytellers. Just because they wrote something down doesn't make it a definitive historical account of what actually happened. When they refer to flying cities and fiery chariots, they are more than likely being figurative and fanciful. When it comes to rockets and atomic weapons, I would say that you are applying modern day filters onto that - you are interpreting it from a modern perspective and not the perspective of the original writers. This means that when you see something that looks like a modern rocket, you will jump to the conclusion that it is a modern rocket. A great example is the Abydos "Helicopter Hieroglyph":
No, of course it doesn't. But the great majority of myths at least derive from older myths revealing a lost history. And no, where they refer to flying cities and fiery chariots, they're actually being very nonfigurative. The ancient Indian texts clearly refer to aerial cities controlled by gods. The vimanas are very interesting as well.





It weren't "myths" to them, it was pure history. And all documented history that fights with the darwinian theory will be classified as "myths". The ancient Egyptians talk about rockets. And when I mentioned "atomic weapons" I referred to the "weapons of great mass destruction" used by the gods. I believe there're radioactive areas and artifacts.

That hieroglyph does seem to show a helicopter and a spaceship. But what we see there is our current idea of helicopters and spaceships, and to be quite honest, I doubt that the aliens would be going around in Hueys. People who believe that such things prove the existence of aliens are falling into this trap of applying modern day filters. 100 years ago, people would not have linked these hieroglyphs to aliens, and 100 years in the future people probably won't either, because their idea of a helicopter or spaceship may be completely different to our idea of one now. If there were aliens back then, why would they be using equipment that applies to our current definition of advanced technology? This is also a good example of people seeing what they want to see. If I said that this same hieroglyph is perfect proof that the Ancient Egyptians played cricket, you would probably think I'm absurd. But look at those three vertical lines with the horizontal line lying on top of them - they quite clearly resemble a set of wickets. Obviously, I am taking the hieroglyphs completely out of context, but so are those people who think that something resembling modern technology is actually modern technology. Then they are further taking it out of context by blaming aliens.
Dunno about that hieroglyph. It's possible that it's a coincidence. But the structure of these vehicles is a natural result of logic, so there's no reason for why it can't have looked the same as it looks now.

This being the great flood that flooded the entire world and killed almost everyone? Well again, you are looking at this from a modern perspective. When the ancients say these floods covered the world, they most likely mean the known world for them, which was a rather small area. How would they know what was happening half the world away or even just a region away? You might reply by saying that there were multiple mentions of great floods from different places, but it makes much more sense that they are talking about different floods happening at different times. It's only when we take the idea of the great flood literally that the multiple mentions of floods seem to link together.
We HAVE the look at this from a modern perspective, most of those myths have been deformed or became vague over time. There're the same structures and myths all across different places of the world, it seems they very well knew about each other. Those different floods happening at different times really doesn't make sense, the flood was used to wipe out the genetic wickedness. The human DNA was damaged due to interbreeding between the "sons of the gods" and human women. It was a time of mass hybridization.

Synecdoche wrote:It's unlikely to me that the Fomorians would have been experiments. They were gods as well, and were both descended from the same ancestors and interbred with the divine, but human-shaped, Tuatha. Some Fomorians had no deformities to speak of as well.
"The medieval myth of Partholon says that his followers were the first to invade Ireland after the flood, but the Fomorians were already there: Seathrún Céitinn reports a tradition that the Fomorians, led by Cíocal, had arrived two hundred years earlier and lived on fish and fowl until Partholon came, bringing the plough and oxen. Partholon defeated Cíocal in the Battle of Mag Itha, but all his people later died of plague."

It looks to me that the fomorians were survivors of the flood, and that the people who invaded Ireland saw them as semi-divine.

Mandos wrote:And here I come in to defend iliander...
Super, its one thing to have a helicopter like hieroglyph somewhere in a lost pyramid where your hypothesis may apply, but there's a different thing to have modern equipment and machinery displayed on relics and temples all around the world, several times, from the pyramids of Egypt to the pyramids of the Maya.

You can call it a coincidence only so much, it can't be the case everywhere, in every book, on every stone and in every temple that displays vehicles and astronauts. I would be willing to call them false interpretations but its simply too much of a common and spread occurrence throughout the ages.
Exactly.
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Re: Discussing Homosexuality

Post by Synecdoche on Sun 21 Jul 2013 - 21:41

They were indeed divine, and there are accounts related to Biblical floods. There's actually something onteresting here that bears noting. While the Tuatha de Danann and the Fomorians are mentioned before the arrival of Insular Christianity, there is no mention of any great flood in the stories until after Christianity came to Ireland and went on full conversion mode. This is repeated in many other cultures, as when Christian missionaries wanted to convert the populace they incorporated local religions into the Christian mythos, albeit while calling them evil and saying that they were followers of wicked devils and such. This is why Snorri Sturlusson says the Norse Gods were descendants of Trojan siege survivors despite the fact that mentions of Wōdanaz stretch back far before then in Proto-Germanic lands, why the Fomorians are mentioned in relation to the Flood, and countless other things like that. The Romans did the same thing, in their own way. They said that the chief god of the Allemani tribe was Mercury, even though the Allemanni did not worship Roman gods at all. Western mythologies bear similar motifs often directly as a result of Christian or Roman imperialism.
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Re: Discussing Homosexuality

Post by super7700 on Sun 21 Jul 2013 - 22:41

Mandos wrote:And here I come in to defend iliander...
I must say I'm surprised. Razz 

Mandos wrote:You can call it a coincidence only so much, it can't be the case everywhere, in every book, on every stone and in every temple that displays vehicles and astronauts. I would be willing to call them false interpretations but its simply too much of a common and spread occurrence throughout the ages.
Why would the ancients be depicting modern-day machinery? While we don't know what alien technology might look like, if they were capable of visiting the ancients then they would probably be much, much more advanced than our current state. This means that there is absolutely no reason to believe that their equipment and machinery would at all resemble that of the modern world.

When the ancients looked at these things, I doubt they would have seen them as vehicles and astronauts. They could be depicting something fanciful and mythical. And while Iliander might enjoy taking mythical things literally, they aren't necessarily true.

Iliander wrote:No, of course it doesn't. But the great majority of myths at least derive from older myths revealing a lost history. And no, where they refer to flying cities and fiery chariots, they're actually being very nonfigurative. The ancient Indian texts clearly refer to aerial cities controlled by gods. The vimanas are very interesting as well.

It weren't "myths" to them, it was pure history. And all documented history that fights with the darwinian theory will be classified as "myths". The ancient Egyptians talk about rockets. And when I mentioned "atomic weapons" I referred to the "weapons of great mass destruction" used by the gods. I believe there're radioactive areas and artifacts.
What makes these older myths lost history rather than fanciful tales? And how do you possibly know that they were telling the absolute truth when the wrote about flying cities controlled by Gods? Humans have always being telling stories, and unfortunately they often become intertwined with fact, creating an inaccurate set of documents. So while there might be some fact in these religious texts, don't take it all as fact, and especially not the things that have little definite evidence elsewhere (eg flying cities and ancient rockets). My reply to Mandos I think sufficiently explains why the bird-shaped object isn't a plane or spaceship.

When it comes to weapons of mass destruction, I'm afraid that modern filters are being applied again. Mass destruction can come in many forms such as tsunamis, volcanos and plagues, just to name a few. Given all the evidence that these things were occurring back then and the very little "evidence" that there were nuclear weapons, I would link such events to the natural causes. And as the ancients liked having reasons for things happening, just like we do now, there is nothing strange about them blaming the supposed gods.

Iliander wrote:Dunno about that hieroglyph. It's possible that it's a coincidence. But the structure of these vehicles is a natural result of logic, so there's no reason for why it can't have looked the same as it looks now.
My point is that although it might have looked the same for thousands of years, it only resembles modern technology to the modern human. It would have resembled something entirely different for those looking at it in the past, and it will resemble something entirely different for those looking at it in the future, since Huey-like helicopters will become completed outdated and forgotten.

Iliander wrote:We HAVE the look at this from a modern perspective, most of those myths have been deformed or became vague over time. There're the same structures and myths all across different places of the world, it seems they very well knew about each other. Those different floods happening at different times really doesn't make sense, the flood was used to wipe out the genetic wickedness. The human DNA was damaged due to interbreeding between the "sons of the gods" and human women. It was a time of mass hybridization.
You don't have to take things from a modern perspective. If you want to accurately work out what these myths and structures relate to, you have to think like an ancient would. Think of what something could possibly have resembled to them before you start thinking about what it resembles to you. And back then they didn't have science to explain so many of the natural phenomena the it explains now, so additionally think about how they might take a natural but scientifically-unexplained event. Also you have made a massive assumption - how do you know for sure that the floods were to wipe out "genetic wickedness"? Again you are taking religious texts as definitive proof. I find it quite amusing that you think the idea of multiple floods occurring at different times is stranger than a massive flood sent by a god and only referenced to in some semi-historical religious texts and myths. Unfortunately you seem to believe every word of these texts and you happily discuss Fomorians as if they are perfectly ordinary, yet you cannot actually prove that it these things are historical accounts and not fictional tales.
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Re: Discussing Homosexuality

Post by Mandos on Sun 21 Jul 2013 - 23:24

super7700 wrote:And back then they didn't have science to explain so many of the natural phenomena the it explains now, so additionally think about how they might take a natural but scientifically-unexplained event.
You just proved iliander's point. A lightning storm comes along, ancients think its God, we know its a natural phenomena. An alien comes along, ancients think its a God, we know its only an extraterestrial.

See, you can't neither disprove it nor prove it.
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Re: Discussing Homosexuality

Post by Synecdoche on Sun 21 Jul 2013 - 23:41

We don't "know it's only an extraterrestrial", Mandos. People claim to speak to God and see angels today all over the world, are those aliens? It's the same exact thing that people used to do way back then. You guys are so focused on this one idea that you don't stop and realize that religious experience is not predicated on objective reality. As I say every freaking time, why are some religions aliens and some just wrong? While there are many points in different areas to draw lines between, you do not even come close to touching half of the world's religions with this astronaut stuff. And gods exist in those religions too.
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Re: Discussing Homosexuality

Post by peugeot407 on Mon 22 Jul 2013 - 0:18

Er, Mandos, without wishing to sound offensive, you do seem to be having quite a deep-rooted tunnel vision when it comes to these things. Rather than admitting there's a statistical possibility that God or gods do exist, you take refuge to the ridiculous, namely extraterrestrial visits, to explain phenomena you don't understand.


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Re: Discussing Homosexuality

Post by Mandos on Mon 22 Jul 2013 - 1:28

Wait what? Phenomena I don understand? For example?
If you ever payed attention to my hate on religion back on WotTA's, you would have noticed me say this:
Mandos wrote:But then one could say "If you think that Mandos they why do you deny God?". I am not completely denying him, while I do believe there is a superior force out there similar to a God, I also believe everything we have been told about him (or it) is wrong, and I'm not rushing in giving him credit for so many things.
I do think there's God(s), but our teaching about him, 95% wrong, because those teaching were made mainly to control and suppress humanity through its believes, not to bring it closer to God. That might have changed today a bit, since were not mindless sheep anymore, but still. That is my opinion.
So your comment is invalid.
Synecdoche wrote:People claim to speak to God and see angels today all over the world, are those aliens? It's the same exact thing that people used to do way back then.
Ah, but there's also a lot of people interacting with "aliens" today as much (if not more) than there are with gods, are there not? Most of them are crazy, yes, but are all of them?
Lets put it this way, if a scientist (or a man interested in science) is to interact with either aliens or gods today, he would ultimately say he interacted with aliens, even if it were gods. Because he's a man of science and prefers this more realistic, scientific explication. Science, no matter of type, usually doesn't agree with God and his stories of making everything.
If a faithful man who believes in God interacts with either aliens or gods today, he is more likely to say he interacted with gods, even if it were aliens. Because it makes more sense to him and it makes him feel more important and blessed and shit.

Going back in ancient times and we have less to none scientist and only people which believed in gods. Did I made my point yet?
Anyway, I will stop responding to this because its a retarded subject.


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Re: Discussing Homosexuality

Post by peugeot407 on Mon 22 Jul 2013 - 1:34

Wasn't aware of that, my apologies...


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Re: Discussing Homosexuality

Post by super7700 on Mon 22 Jul 2013 - 8:17

Mandos wrote:You just proved iliander's point. A lightning storm comes along, ancients think its God, we know its a natural phenomena. An alien comes along, ancients think its a God, we know its only an extraterestrial.
There's a slight flaw in your logic there -  we don't know that it was an extraterrestrial. We have no real idea what aliens are really like when it comes to technology and appearance. So people are linking these ancient things to something they don't even know about! What is really happening is that we've seen an artifact resembling something modern, which as I've already mentioned, is highly unlikely to resemble anything alien. And as I've explained, while something might look modern to our modern eyes, it could very easily resemble something completely different to the ancients who actually made them.

Mandos wrote:Ah, but there's also a lot of people interacting with "aliens" today as much (if not more) than there are with gods, are there not? Most of them are crazy, yes, but are all of them?
Lets put it this way, if a scientist (or a man interested in science) is to interact with either aliens or gods today, he would ultimately say he interacted with aliens, even if it were gods. Because he's a man of science and prefers this more realistic, scientific explication. Science, no matter of type, usually doesn't agree with God and his stories of making everything.
If a faithful man who believes in God interacts with either aliens or gods today, he is more likely to say he interacted with gods, even if it were aliens. Because it makes more sense to him and it makes him feel more important and blessed and shit.

Going back in ancient times and we have less to none scientist and only people which believed in gods. Did I made my point yet?
Anyway, I will stop responding to this because its a retarded subject.
When someone attributes an experience to a god or alien today (and this is ignoring the many faked ones), it is because they don't understand how it scientifically happened, just like in the ancient times. So these experiences don't necessarily mean that there is a god or alien. It could be something else yet undiscovered by science or something that has been discovered which the person having the experience didn't know about. Also, I don't believe that science provides a decent explanation for aliens, if anything I would say that it is those who are neither scientific nor religious who attribute such experiences to aliens.
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Re: Discussing Homosexuality

Post by dietermoreno on Wed 24 Jul 2013 - 15:07

I think illiander sees aliens in things because he is looking for something to believe in to give him pleasure in his life because he is both atheist and has no pleasure from fapping.

Definately the no-fap that makes him see aliens in hieloglyphics.

I think the no-fap is dangerous for illiander's mental health and he needs to fap tonight.

I hope you don't live in the UK illiander, I heard porn is being required by law to be made blocked by default by ISPs there.grinning 
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Re: Discussing Homosexuality

Post by peugeot407 on Wed 24 Jul 2013 - 19:34

Nonsense. Yes, there was a proposition in the European Parliament, filed by some mostly Catholic parties from Southern Europe, but as I recall, it didn't even manage to get 10% support in the EP, so there's not going to be such a law...


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Re: Discussing Homosexuality

Post by dietermoreno on Thu 25 Jul 2013 - 10:01

peugeot407 wrote:Nonsense. Yes, there was a proposition in the European Parliament, filed by some mostly Catholic parties from Southern Europe, but as I recall, it didn't even manage to get 10% support in the EP, so there's not going to be such a law...


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Good to hear. I doubted it would pass. It sounded like such a strange bill for government to be bothered with when they have bigger problems.

And if they did pass it, I would think that there was a secret motive that has nothing to do with porn, like this bill is just the stepping stone to next censor foreign websites.
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Re: Discussing Homosexuality

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